Leveling a Rogue: Leveling Subtlety 10-80
It’s time for the Subtlety guide. Thanks in part to some help from the community and some research of my own, I’ve built a Subtlety spec for leveling with the criteria I set for myself. Those criteria were :
-
The build would emphasise the use of Stealth
-
It must include 51 points in the Subtlety tree
-
It would be balanced for PvE, but include tools for PvP use
Will this build level as fast as Combat, or even Assassination? I’m still testing that, but I’m fairly sure the answer is no. Will it be a fun ride? I’m positive the answer is yes. So without any further delay, here’s a fun spec that will let you release your “inner Rogue” to dispatch your opponents quickly and return to the shadows…
- Leveling Subtlety: 10-80 -
Please note that this build is theoretical, and has not been fully tested by the author. However, hours of planning, researching, opinion gathering and crumpled pieces of legal pads went into it’s creation, so if nothing else it’s thought out.
This build relies heavily on the use of Stealth, and will require the use of Daggers. The Ambush ability is going to get some amazing upgrades from this build and will be your primary opener unless you have the need to stun or silence something. Combo point generation will come from using Hemorrhage, as well as from Ghostly Strike (you’ll still use Sinister Strike until you get those).
Our finisher of choice will be Eviscerate. You can use Rupture, if the mob will live long enough to let it fully tick, but the point of this build is to kill things with fast burst damage. You can switch over to Envenom at 62 if you like, but it won’t be as powerful as it is when you’re an Assassination Rogue. Let’s begin:
Level 10 – 11 – Opportunity
Because we’re going to be striking from the shadows, we’re going to need to start fights like we mean them. The extra 20% damage that Ambush is going to get from this ability is one part of accomplishing that task. In addition, this will make your Backstab more powerful until we reach level 18 and get Ambush.
New Skills at level 10: Sap, Slice and Dice and Sprint. Sap allows you to incapacitate an humanoid from Stealth; later levels will allow for Sapping other mob types. Slice and Dice is a Finisher that increases attack speed; the duration of the buff depends on the number of combo points. Sprint is a handy tool for increasing your movement speed for 15 seconds.
Level 12 – 14 – Master of Deception
We’re going to be spending a majority of our time in Stealth. This talent will help us stay there by avoiding detection.
New Skill at Level 12: Kick. Kick is the Rogue’s Interrupt ability. This, with your other stuns, such as gouge should make killing casters much easier.
New Skills at Level 14: Expose Armor, Garrote. Expose armor is a Finisher that reduces the target’s armor (90 per combo point) for 30 seconds. Garrote is our first real Opener, and it does two things. First, it applies a bleed effect on the target, which is our first DoT (Damage over Time) ability, and in a higher rank also has a silence effect.
Level 15 – 17: Camouflage
The effective use of Stealth is a strong point of this tree, but it’s also a weakness due to the reduced movement speed. This ability will speed our Stealth travel up, as well as lower the cooldown so we can more quickly prepare for the next fight.
New Skill at level 16: Feint. Feint, which lowers your threat, has no use in solo play, but this is slated to change in 3.1. If it does, I’ll make note of it here.
Level 18 – 19: Dirty Tricks
Sap and Blind are critical to our ability to control fights. This talent increases their range and reduces their cost by 50%.
New Skill at Level 18: Ambush. This ability is only going to get better as we go. We’re going to be buffing its damage and crit, while reducing its cost. Start getting used to it now, as we’re going to use this to take off as much of our opponent’s life as possible with the first hit. Macro it with Pick Pocket to always pick the pockets (if able) of the mobs you Ambush:
Note: This will only work if you enable the autoloot option.
/cast Pick Pocket
/stopcasting
/Cast Ambush
If you’re a purist and you don’t like to macro things, then don’t. If you don’t care, using this macro will make leveling lockpicking a joke from all the junkboxes you’ll pick up.
Level 20: Ghostly Strike
This ability has a 20 second cooldown, but you’ll want to use it in place of Sinister Strike when its up, as it will give a mini Evasion effect. Once you have all of your stuns available to you, coupled with this attack and Evasion, you’ll have a much easier time taking down harder mobs and elites, because you’ll be very hard to hit.
New Skills at level 20: Dismantle and Rupture. Dismantle will allow you to disarm your opponents, thereby lowering their damage. Rupture is a new Finisher that puts a bleed DoT on the target, the damage and length increase per combo point.
Level 21 – 23: Serrated Blades
Armor reduction (that increases with level) and a 30% increase to Rupture Damage.
New Skills at Level 22: Distract and Vanish. Distract makes using moves in Stealth much easier, as you can use it to both freeze mobs in place, and face away with you. Vanish is your best survival tool. If you bite off more than you can chew, you simply Vanish, and combat resets.
Level 24: Elusiveness
We can’t afford to put more than 1 point here, but the cooldown reduction on Vanish, Blind and Cloak of Shadows will be useful while we’re leveling.
New Skill at Level 24: Detect Traps. This will allow you to see traps that Hunters drop. Very few mobs in the game drop traps, so it’s real use is PvP.
Level 25 & 26: Improved Ambush
Ambush is, as previously stated, our Opener of choice. This talent increases its chance to crit by 50% for only 2 talent points.
New Skill at Level 26: Cheap Shot. While not as useful as our Ambush, this Opener has its place. If you need to stun a mob for some reason, open with this. You can macro it with Pick Pocket as well.
Level 27 - 29: Initiative
This talent will add an additional combo point when we use Ambush, Garrote or Cheap Shot. This means a free combo point on almost every mob we fight, as we’re supposed to be starting our combat with one of these three moves whenever possible.
Level 30: Hemorrhage
Welcome to your new combo point generation move (unless Ghostly Strike is up). It’s cheap, generates 110% weapon damage and puts a 10 stack debuff that will add up to 75 damage (at level 80) to any physical damage dealt to the target. Since the majority of your damage is physical, this will significantly up your damage output (or anyone else dealing physical damage to the target).
Note: Ambush and Eviscerate should take care of most of your targets health, and that Hemo itself is there to fill in the gap, and build combo points. If you’d rather use Hemo as your primary attack, get yourself a heavy hitting Sword/Fist/Mace and use stuns to kill your mobs. Just know that the talents in this build do not directly support that approach.
New Skills at Level 30: Disarm Trap and Kidney Shot. Again, like the Detect Trap ability, Disarm Trap’s main use is in PvP. Kidney Shot is another Stun like Cheap Shot. It’s possible with those two abilities and gouge to kill a mob without them ever being able to attack. It just requires efficient use of the cooldowns.
Level 31: Preparation
This talent will reset the cooldown on almost every major ability you have. Use it to get out of a nasty situation, or to turn the tide of battle in your favor.
Level 32 – 33: Dirty Deeds
This will shave off 20% of the cost of Cheap Shot and Garrote, but more importantly, it will buff all of our special ability damage by 20% when our target is below 35% health.
Level 34: Setup
We’re going to finish filling this out later, but when fully talented, we’ll get a free combo point after any dodge or full resist of a spell.
New Skills at Level 34: Blind. You can use Blind to “stun” an enemy for 10 seconds. Note that any damage dealt to the target will break the effect.
Level 35 - 39: Deadliness
Fully talented, this is a flat 10% buff to your attack power, making this a pretty powerful talent that’s too good to skip.
Level 40: Premeditation
This ability requires stealth, and allows you to add 2 combo points to your target before you even start the fight. This means that you can use this ability, followed by an Ambush, and have 5 combo points on your target before you’re even hit.
New Skill at Level 40: Safe Fall. You can now fall from higher ledges and survive; It’s not Slow Fall though, so don’t overdo it.
Level 41 & 42: Setup
Two more points to finish it.
Level 43 & 44: Cheat Death
Mainly used as a PvP ability, Cheat Death is in this build for survivability purposes. If an attack would kill you, it will instead reduce you you to 10% of your health. Also, any damage taken for 3 seconds will be reduced by 90%.
Level 45 – 49: Sinister Calling
Increases your Agility by 15% and the damage bonus of Backstab / Hemorrhage by 5%. This will provide a fair amount of attack power and crit in addition to the damage bonus.
Level 50: Shadowstep
This will allow you to basically teleport behind an enemy, get a 3 second sprint effect and increase your next ability’s damage by 20%. In addition it will cut the threat of that ability in half. This should speed up your mobility with a modest damage boost to your initial attack.
Level 51: Cheat Death
Finish it.
Level 52 – 54: Master of Subtlety
This will increase your damage by 10% when in Stealth, and for 6 seconds after breaking it. If you’re always attacking from stealth and killing things within 6 seconds, you’ll always have this buff.
Level 55 – 59: Slaughter from the Shadows
This will cut the Energy of our two main abilities. Ambush will get reduced by 15 Energy, and Hemorrhage by 5.
Level 60: Shadowdance
This really has more of a PvP flair to it, but it allows you to use your Stealth abilities for 10 seconds out of stealth. For PvE it could allow you to do things that wouldn’t otherwise be possible, like use Ambush multiple times in a single fight.
Level 61 – 65: Malice
The 5 points of interest in the Assassination tree are for the 5% crit chance.
New Skill at Level 62: Envenom. This ability consumes combo points and Deadly Poison stacks on your target to deal massive damage. It also increases the chance that your poisons will land after the ability.
New Skill at Level 64: Deadly Throw. This Finisher deals high amounts of Thrown weapon damage and slows the target for 6 sec.
Level 66 - 70: Dual Wield Specialization
A Combat tree buff to our off hand white damage. We’re taking this because we need it for Close Quarters Combat, and it’s our best use of 5 points at this tier for our DPS.
New Skill at Level 66: Cloak of Shadows. Using this ability will make you near Immune to magic and poisons. If used while either are affecting you, it will remove them.
New Skill at Level 70: Shiv. This is a physical attack that applies your off hand poison on the target. Very useful in PvP, but Blizzard has stated that they don’t want it to be widely used in PvE.
Level 71 - 75: Precision
We would have gotten this sooner, but taking 10 levels off of putting points into Subtlety would have been hard. Enjoy missing less.
New Skill at Level 75: Tricks of the Trade. This is the Rogue version of Misdirect. I personally think it’s more useful than Misdirect, and you can read about its many uses here.
Level 76 - 80: Close Quarters Combat
You’re going to be using 2 Daggers as long as you’re Subtlety Spec, so you should at least benefit from the 5% extra crit you can get with your last 5 points.
New Skill at Level 80: Fan of Knives. A true AoE ability for the Rogue that has great synergy with Tricks of the Trade.
Congratulations! You’ve reached level 80! I hope you’ve enjoyed leveling Subtlety. I’m going to assume that you’ll stay Subtlety, and I’ll be writing a PvP spec for it soon, but if you want to raid, Here’s my Assassination raid spec. However, if you want to respec Combat, try something like this. Enjoy the endgame; you’ve earned it.
- Sam
March 12, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Using hemorrhage with daggers is absolutely crazy! For an attack that does damage based on your weapon’s damage range you want to find the slowest weapon possible. For a levelling subtlety build stay as far away from daggers as you can. Ambush is pretty marginal and not enough reason to stick with them.
If you insist on using daggers (but please don’t) you would be using backstab as your primary combo-point generator. You’d be using cheap shot as an opener to allow you to position yourself behind the mob, and probably mostly KS as a finisher for the same reason.
If you want to do things inefficiently because you enjoy the experience or whatever then of course that’s fine, but it seems unusual to write that up as a guide.
One other random thing:
“Feint, which lowers your threat, has no use in solo play…”
It does reduce incoming aoe damage for six seconds. While it’s admittedly pretty marginal for soloing, you can invent situations when it’s useful – soloing an above-con elite who uses whirlwind, for example.
March 12, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Actually, the AoE reduction on feint only applies to the max rank (obtainable at 78) so it would never be of any use for levelling. Mea culpa.
March 13, 2009 at 9:16 am
Chronic,
Every point you’ve made is totally valid, and I’m actually thinking about adding a section at the begining on how to approach leveling using a heavy hitting hemo with a sword or fist and stuns. I would never build a true Hemo spec for daggers.
Anyway, the Combat and Assassination guides were built for speed and survivability. This guide was built for people that wanted to level as Roguishly as possible. The entire build focuses on Stealth and using Ambush to take off as much life as possible.
As far as efficiency, it’s still a fairly efficient build and things should die fast (I’m actually leveling a second Rogue to test it), but I never claimed it to be a good sustained DPS build. The main point was to get away from the heavy hitting sword and stun way of playing, and embrace what a Rogue probably should (and often doesn’t) feel like.
All that being said, thanks for the input. I enjoy getting the different viewpoints in here for people to use. I’ve heard from plenty of people who have used Subtlety both ways (Sword/Fist vs. Daggers), and both discussed how easy and quick it was to take out mobs. If in my testing I find this build to be beyond inferior, I’ll completely rewrite the whole thing.
- Sam
March 13, 2009 at 11:00 am
Chronic
When you have the pick pocket macro:
/cast Pick Pocket
/stopcasting
/Cast Cheap Shot
shouldn’t Cheap Shot be replaced by Ambush in this build?
March 13, 2009 at 11:46 am
Thanks for catching that. There’s been a lot of cut & paste from the other two guides to save time. I forgot to change it, but I’ll get it fixed.
- Sam
March 27, 2009 at 6:04 pm
As someone whose main has been a decked-out shadow priest for years, I wanted to try something very different. I love shadow priests, but I just wanted to do something different when I wasn’t raiding with him.
So, I’m leveling a NE sub rogue and I’m loving it (at level 42 so far). I can’t imagine why one would want to play a rogue using a spec other than subtlety/daggers. It just feels… roguey. (Yes, there is a *non-dagger* sub build that I can share with you if you’re interested.)
If someone wants to play their rogue by charging into a bunch of mobs swinging swords, then why not simply roll a warrior or pally? It makes no sense to me.
As for myself, I love sneaking around and causing havoc!
March 30, 2009 at 3:44 am
Level 40 so far with the guide, killing fast, sneaking around with daggers
I was going to level sub before I found this, my main is a Mage so the guide really explains a lot to me. Thanks for this!
March 30, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I love the build. I am only lvl 30 but have opened with ambush all the time and have dropped level 28 mobs in 1 hit.
March 30, 2009 at 6:19 pm
I’m glad to hear that the build is working so well for everyone. Keep me posted.
-Sam
April 5, 2009 at 8:37 pm
I had a combat rogue which i took to level 38 and got very bored, i used ur spec an within 3 days i am now 52, im not saying its faster, but certainly more fun.
April 6, 2009 at 2:13 am
Hey sam
First up, good guide. I switched into subtlety after being specced combat. I am level 32 right now and just wanted to try something different – the Subtlety tree is different and very refreshing. I use a pair of daggers because Ambush dictates one must, so anyone who is complaining about using swords/maces should spec back to combat and, as Duke Nukem would say, blow it out their ass.
Strangely, there was a steep learning curve for this build – which is no fault of your own. Having to re-learn how to use stealth effectively, how to sap mobs in proper priority, and then go for the big kills was tough! But it sure beats the hell out of combat – which I find is boring and risky.
Speccing subtlety is not going to be the fastest way to level, I will not argue that; but it is fast enough. Once rogues who convert to subtlety learn to time their stealth (a knack lost by playing combat…) at just the right distance from their target mob, they can get from mob-to-mob efficiently and take them down in similar manner.
Great guide – I am officially a subtlety convert. I can’t wait to get through to 80 and start HAT raiding.
Cheers,
Moraghul
April 6, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Kieran and Moraghul,
I’m glad you’re both having fun. I think all too often people forget that this is a game and that goals, while important shouldn’t take away from the fun in the journey.
-Sam
April 6, 2009 at 9:11 pm
In reply to the comments about quickly stealthing and sapping, I’ve found that these binds work well:
Q – Macro:- Stealth, when stealthed it changes to sap.
E – Premeditation
R – Macro:- Pickpocket, ambush (as above)
F – Ghostly Strike, hemo x 7 macro, 7-sec reset) (i spam this if i need combo points)
V – Hemo just encase ghostly strike is down
G – Dismantle
C – Eviscerate finishing move, (spam this when you want to finish it).
I’m new to rogue, but I like these keys as they are in a kinda circle around my movement keys (A and D are strafe and I use the mouse to turn).
I am also a NELF so I have macro’d shadowmeld and stealth together to make another “vanish”. I tend to not try to fight too many at once with the build and use shadowmeld a lot.
I’ll sap and then open/kill, restealth and open on the one I sapped before. If I get in trouble I’ll usually use blind to give me time to get some more energy!
Anyway, that’s enough rambling from me, hope someone finds this post useful.
Jason
April 23, 2009 at 4:59 pm
i’ve been sub since day one in wow. a few notes of interest… i use hemo constantly and i’m daggers. yeah i know, use backstab. can’t use it if you’re soloing though. can get one backstab off while mob is gouged. i use hemo because it’s cheaper than sinister strike, more combo points generated for less energy.
right now i’m L75, and because i solo, i don’t have great gear. i do however get around 3k ambush crits as my opener. (and yes, it’s taken me three and a half years to get to L75 – what can i say i get easily… ooh shiny!)
the build is pretty close to what i have currently. i’m always looking for more ways to improve it, but a lot of what i find seems to infer that you are in a group.
April 28, 2009 at 2:31 am
Well this makes pleasant reading. I thought from many of the other guides that I was being a freak putting points into subtelty. I had a particular reason, however… I play allmost entirely solo. I am on a PvP server and this build works nicely for rogue style PvP… YOU choose the time and place, and wipe as much as you can with that first hit.
The combination of Premed and Initiative mean that I have five combo points immediately after my first strike from stealth. Depending on the situaiton this can go into Kidney Shot, Slice ‘n Dice, or Eviscerate. My favourite choice at the moment for PvE (lvl 52) is however Rupture. I’m working on introducing this into my PvP fights rather than stunning, as the damage continues even if the target moves away.
Given my amount of solo work (and this is my first WoW character) the enhanced sneak, improved speeds and use of Preparation to get TWO sprints or TWO vanishes in a row is great. It turns out that it makes for quite an effective flag runner in WSG as well (the sprints, not the vanishes).
Thanks for the detailed write up… it has encouraged me to continue to explore this build and to feel a little less odd in doing so.
April 28, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Hi Sam,
Like many of your other poster’s here I have choosen to use Subtlety for my rogue simply because it feels more rogueish. My rogue will be primarily for PVP as I have a Resto Druid main for raiding. This toon is for my PVP fix!
I can’t help but notice the first post in here was about the mis-use of the Hemo talent. I understand your using it as a combo point generator (especially because its so cheap) but I could help but wonder if there was a way to still generate the combo points and take better advantage of the Hemo talent.
Granted in PVE the mobs are predictable and you can generally Ambush, Ghostly Strike, Spam Hemo and Eviscerate and the mob is dead (I’m lvl 30 so no Premediation). But if your soloing and elite or fighting well above your weigh class the 110% on a sword instead of a dagger would surely work to your advantage?
To that end i’ve come up with a couple of simple macro’s.
1. Replace the Stealth button –
/cast Stealth
/equipslot 16 [Dagger]
2. Expand on your Ambush Macro-
/cast [stealth] Pick Pocket
/stop casting
/cast [stealth] Ambush; Ghostly Strike (Ghostly Strike is used if stealth is broken)
/equipslot 16 [Sword]
What I was wondering is, how you and your poster’s normally use your rotation (whatever it may be). Is it a series of key bindings? So you press 1, 3, 3, 4, 7 (as an example) then rinse and repeat or do you roll the rotation into an all in one macro ? I ask this because when I rolled my first toon, a mage, I always seemed to get pwned before I could even find my iceblock, by rogues – yes I was a clicker
I am also eagerly awaiting your pvp guide to Subtlety as that is the primary reason for rolling this toon. Of course it would involve keeping a target stun locked, but I am curious what is an energy efficient rotation that keeps a balance between stun locking and burning them down.
Love the guides !!
May 25, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Great Guide I’ve been following it and love the subtlety spec. You’re right, why spec in anything else for that you could be something more tuned for that sort of thing.
June 1, 2009 at 3:40 pm
thanks much for this guide. I wanted to feel like a rogue, not an arms warrior, and this is doing it in style. My logic is thus; i am a pvp kind of person, and BG’s offer no exp, so why devote all of my time into a “better” leveling spec when that’s not what i’m necessarily doing all of the time? Besides, intelligent subtlety rogues will fare better than the average rogue of any spec, and its about fun!
June 5, 2009 at 6:48 pm
I’ve leveled 2 characters to 80 and 2 to the mid-40s (before quitting those characters out of boredom). This spec for rogues is the most fun I’ve had leveling a character in WoW.
June 16, 2009 at 9:16 am
Hi, May I say great guide, and thanks for taking the time to do it.
My Rogue is on an EU pvp server and now level 70, which it’s been for many months, as it’s not my main character.
I’m about to start on it again, and been browsing for ideas.
I went from 10 to 65 following a spec allmost identical and loved it. However for me there was 2 problems.
so maybe reactions or understanding is slower, but I could not master the use of Shadowstep and Shadow Dance, so I did a respec as follows:-
It may be my age. Rapidly approaching retirement
At 70
I have 5 points in Malice
In Combat 21 taking advantage of Improved Slice and Dice, Endurance, Improved Kick and ending at Blade Flurry.
So my Sublety tree finishes at Premeditation. But intended to add the 70 to 80 points in Sub too.
I have found that for me it has retained the feel of a cunning Rogue but has a few more tricks that I can handle. Improved Kick is great to silence casters. As I said I’m on a PvP realm and need as many escape options as possible.
I have a Weapons addon, so when stealthed have a daggers in both hands. In an effort to keep as much health intact as possible in case I end up in a pvp fight too, I open with Cheap shot / Backstab / Slice and Dice then Hemo, as by then out of stealth my dagger would have been swapped for a slow fist weapon.
Maybe not the best spec or rotation, but works well for me. Would appreciate any polite advise, even if it is to scrap the spec and start over….
That said I would gladly go back to full Sub as the guide shows if some kind “youngster” could steer me in the right direction for using the Shadowstep and Shadow Dance abilities.
June 19, 2009 at 2:10 pm
heey great guide, just wanna know wut glyphs are best
June 23, 2009 at 11:14 am
Sam,
It’s not so much the layout of the sub tree as it is the point of the whole thing, clearly people think that facerolling is the only way to do damage, but speaking from a 2 clothie mains (and previous 70 preWOTLK rogue) i know how much it sucks to be stunlocked and die before i can cast anything. If you can make someone say ‘WTF just happened, I died?’ then you know you’re doing something right
one thing i did modify for my tree was put 2 points into waylay and out of close quarters because of knowing how much it sucks to not be able to get away. it might not be a good sacrifice from the 2% crit but i’ll have to balance which would occur more as waylay is only on an opener as opposed to all the time with both hands with daggers. That is usually how I decide between points, which will i be using more often.
speaking from a rogue’s point of view, previously rolling sub, switching to combat, then back to sub again, it sure is a hell of a lot more fun to sap from 50miles away if anything. more and more i’m seeing the mutilate build as the common pvp build, i’ll have to see how well ambush goes. TY for the read through
June 26, 2009 at 10:14 am
Great guide, it is very detailed and close to the spec I am currently using. My rogue is a lvl 67 UD on the Fenris Server.
For Nínja, the best use of Shadowstep would be to stealth, premeditate, shadowstep then ambush. This will give you better crits and give you time to pull off an eviscerate right after.
Also, Honor Among Thieves is pretty good for a raid or group. It allows for a rogue to gain combo points from the party/raid member crits, both healing and damage. This will allow you to use Slice N Dice, Expose Armor or Rupture almost right after you use Eviscerate, then you can go back to backstabbing or hemoing and pop another Evis.
June 26, 2009 at 12:03 pm
HaT is a very good skill to pick up if you are in a group setting. It’s not nearly as useful solo though, which is the way this spec was intended to be played. I probably should get a PvE group/raid based Subtlety spec up here.
- Sam
June 30, 2009 at 9:44 am
I decided to start leveling a rogue and have no idea where to begin. This guide looks like a good start. Thanks very much.
July 5, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Any idea on when the subtlety guide will be available ?
July 10, 2009 at 1:09 am
Would you reccomend this build when doing BG?
July 20, 2009 at 5:06 pm
For BG’s you can pretty much stun the mob for about 20 seconds straight. I’m thinking something like:
Cheap Shot, Kidney shot, vanish, cheap shot, kidney shot (if its up), prep, cheap shot, kidney shot (if its up).
but that would require you to blow all your cooldowns.
August 7, 2009 at 8:54 am
Decent Sub leveling guide, but to truly power level a character i would get the Combat talents First down to 2/2 Endurance, then start taking points in Subtlety. Leveling weapons til Hemorrhage dont really matter but i prefer daggers. Once you get Hemorrhage you’d want the BoA Dalrends MH sword, you get that and youre good for MH weapon til 80. Cheat Death can be swapped for Master of Subtlety since once you get your openers down you can kill any yellow to green mob in 6 seconds flat.
Premeditation should not be clicked on to use, rather you want to macro it onto each of your possible openers for ex:
#show premeditation
/cast Premeditation
/cast Cheap Shot
same for Garrote and Ambush(if you weap swap dagger).
Good to go, Subs a really nice way to level i prefer it over Combat, especially when you get Shadowstep
August 19, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Thank you for this guide! I’m following it on my 30-something rogue alt who’s decked out in BoA daggers, chest and shoulders. I find myself often one-shotting mobs with Ambush, which is pretty fun. Most of the time Ambush > Ghostly Strike > (sometimes a Hemorrhage or two if it’s a higher level mob) > Evis does the trick. Ambush ends up accounting for over 40% of my damage done according to Recount. I never played a rogue before so I’m not familiar with the other specs and have no idea if those would be more efficient, but I’m enjoying sub very much.
August 19, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I’m glad to hear that you’re enjoying it so much. Sounds like you’re doing it right too.
Keep up the good work and let me know how it goes.
- Sam
August 30, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Hey great guide!
I love sub, it’s so much fun compared to the other spec imo. Tell me you don’t love 1 shotting players in bg’s and tearing up mobs in no time.
I’m L70 now and I would love to see a guide for pve group/raids. Keep it up !
September 1, 2009 at 5:39 pm
What do you think of this spec?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhg0oLZ0xZebcdhGzdAzVbot
and could you link your spec through wowhead?
September 4, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I leveled a rogue to 80 following the combat build and was very pleased. But I started another rogue to try out this build. I have to say that this Subtlety build is amazing! I’m level 29 currently and basically killing everything in one or two shots. Sometimes I don’t get the crits at all, and it takes a little longer. At least thus far, I don’t think this is a “slow boat” leveling spec. It has been on par with my Combat experience at least to this point.
One thing that I’m doing that isn’t mentioned here is swapping weapons between stealth and non-stealth stances. I use the add-on Stance Sets to equip a dagger in stealth and a mace out of stealth. I get the best of both worlds this way. I expect that once I get Hemo this will further work to my advantage. I’d recommend trying out the add-on; it’s great not only for rogues but any class that uses any sort of stance (warriors, druids, paladins, etc.)
Anyway, thanks for this excellent guid and this amazing build. I’m excited to see how it works as I get higher up the talent trees.
September 13, 2009 at 8:04 am
Thanx alot for the guide Sam, i was leveling as combat till about 64, now i’m leveling as subtlety and i enjoy it
Keep up the good work.
September 17, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I can not thank you enough for this levelling guide. I’m still pretty noob, and had my rogue up to lvl 45. I was becoming endlessly frustrated with seeming unable to accomplish anything without backup/help. I decided to spec out, (I had been winging it) but couldn’t find many guides that explained exactly how the tree was intended to be used. Along came you!
I play PvE, with the occasional BG for fun, but the BG wasn’t much fun when I couldn’t “find my place.” I tried defending, sneaking and stealing, etc, like everyone suggested, but more often than not I died fantastic deaths without causing much damage on my way down. Last night I redid my talents as per your suggestion (the only change I made was throwing one point into dual wield early) and HOLY WOW, what a change. Mobs I was hacking away at before were dropping in 2, maybe 3 hits! So I decided to throw my lot in the BG to give it a whirl, and actually came out above middle for the first time! (I was in the bottom 5 most of the time) So this spec DOES work, and it is pretty damn easy to get the swing of quickly. (oh, there is pleasure finally being “that guy” that drops people and disappears back off into nothing!!)
Thank you very much, and don’t you dare take down this tutorial!! It’s golden! (oh, and to throw my lot into the weapons discussion, daggers have been working spectacularly.)
September 27, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Hiya sam, this is a great great guide especially for me since im new to rogues so thanks
i was just wondering whether i should go combat or sub but ill try them both and decide for myself.
Also i would love to know a decent rotation for sub like openers and a rotation for combat if anybody knows one
thanks again
Robin
October 3, 2009 at 10:37 am
great guide, sub is alot more fun than combat imo.
im currently on lvl 36 atm.
the only differance i made to the build is an early 3 points into master of subtlety at lvl 32 and finished setup early aswell and it works great, mobs go down in seconds and i can kill mobs that are 4-5lvls above me.
my rotation is
stealth-(distract if u need)-ambush-hemo-eviserate/kidneyshot
usually by now the mob will be nearly dead, especially if u crit on ambush/evis. if the mob still has more life i rotate this after the first.
maintain hemo-ghostly strike+hemo-evis
at later lvls i would expect something like.
stealth-premeditation-shadowstep-ambush-evis-hemo-ghostly strike-hemo-evis
with shadowdance i would do this
stealth-premeditation-shadowstep-cheap shot-hemo-kidneyshot-shadowdance-ambush-ambush-evis. i can see that being sooo deadly but idk if it works energy wise.
if ur in a tight spot hit evasion and everytime u dodge u get a combat point, add the evasion glyph for a nice +5 secs and with a preparation thats 40 secs of +50% dodge. if u think ur going to die then just vanish and try again.
October 4, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I have always been rebellious when it comes to leveling characters and enjoy trying the spec that everyone recommends NOT to level with . . . this guide has definitely helped me achieve that with the rogue. I’m killing mobs my level very easily, often 2 shotting them. I also find it easy to attack mobs 3 or 4 levels higher than myself. I applaud you for sticking to your guns and writing this despite criticism. I also agree . . . what is the point of playing a rogue if you’re just running up to mobs hacking away? You’re right, you might as well just roll a warrior! Am very glad I found this, suits how a rogue should be played perfectly.
November 3, 2009 at 11:04 am
hi Sam,
would you comment on glyphs please,
tyvm
Thor
lvl22 Sub Rogue Noob
November 5, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Sam,
Could you please post a link to the fully built spec that you detail here?
Thanks,
Wolsey
lvl20 Sub Rogue Noob
November 7, 2009 at 12:32 am
I too have been specced sub since day one. This guide has really helped me in getting my talents and rotations worked out. I am an avid pvper and as sub, i can kill other players up to 6 lvls higher than me (i’m 70 atm) I would like to comment on a few topics that keep coming up.
-Hemo daggers: i get around this with a weapon swap macro that switches to my sword before i hemo
/equipslot 16 [your slow hemo weapon]
/cast hemorrhage
and one to switch to my dagger when i stealth to set up for an ambush
/equipslot 16 [dagger]
/cast stealth
Secondly, i have found that i can get an ambush and a garrote off while shadow dance is up, leading to some huge single target dps!
I would encourage all rogues to at least try out this build as it is the most fun rogue build out there imo.
Keep up the great work sam!
November 17, 2009 at 11:55 am
Sam, keep up the great work on this site! This guide has spiked my interest to level my Rogue (56 Combat atm) using your subtlety spec.
November 18, 2009 at 2:10 pm
[...] Meh, have had a bad week in arenas – played a total of two games. Our mage has gone offline for 6months and my 2v2 partner is having some well deserved time-out. Hopefully next week will be better, if not I’ll try and get over my fear/hatred of 5v5s. Otherwise, it’s either TOGC25 or levelling my 5th rogue (Lastrogue, thought I’d give levelling a Subtlety tailor a try, based on this Slice’n'Dice guide). [...]
November 19, 2009 at 11:20 am
Actually, other than speed, I don’t see why you would need two daggers. I like to use a dagger in the main hand and a sword in the opposite. I’m no spec major, but I find the sword helps get some good damage out of my Ambush.
My rogue is 47 currently, and I can take out almost any mob in my level range with a Premediation, Ambush, and Eviscerate (since I have the glyph for it). I try to kill things just over my level range to challenge myself, but since I’m not specced for prolonged combat, I find myself really enjoying my early choice to take Alchemy and Herbalism.
I think the main thing I did differently was to take Master of Subtley and 2 points of Deadliness. I wasn’t sure which would give me more damage output, but I figured that 10% more damage was more than the 6% attack power.
November 29, 2009 at 10:39 am
Good guide. I switched out of a combat build at lvl 20, both for the improved roguish feel and because combat felt BORING. My new subtlety build has injected some much needed FUN back into the game.
I go with a MH sword and OH dagger, but switch ‘em around while stealthed for Ambush. Switching back requires a global cooldown to sit through, but it’s worth it for the damage Ambush is capable of. By then the mob is nearly dead anyway.
Of course I haven’t quite hit lvl 30 yet, but it’s working for me so far.
December 1, 2009 at 4:55 am
I am a level 24 Rogue atm and I have to say if it wasn’t for your guide I would be sitting in silvermoon city with my thumb up my ass since this is my first Rogue. Subtlety is so much fun, I feel like a real rogue sneaking around and killing things quickly as if a deadly shadow.
I did raid with this spec, it was alittle hard but I got the job done. Once I turn 40 I am getting dual spec and building up my assassination for raiding.
Just wanted to say I am loving you guide so far, thanks again for writing this out for all of us noob Rogues ^^
December 8, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Thank you so much! This spec may be slower, but it’s a hell of a lot more fun! Without it I probably would’ve given up on my rogue.
Thank you!
December 27, 2009 at 12:33 am
I specced assissan for a long time with my rogue, but I was attempting to do pvp.. not my style. I went into the sublety tree and I was having alot of fun.. Sublety might not be the fastest way to level a rogue, but if you want to learn how to stunlock, and really get into using all the diversity in stealth (in my opinion).. Then this is a nice build..
Thanks for taking the time to write this, and thanks for answering questions..
December 29, 2009 at 11:30 pm
I’ve always wanted to level a rogue. We’ve got some good ones in the guild and they always kick some serious butt. Seems like there’s been an almost mass extinction though. I know when I was leveling my druid I liked the stealthy aspects of the feral tree best. So I had an excess of heroism badges and I hooked my rogue up. Tried combat and it just flat out bored me. I think of “sneaky bastige” when I think “rogue” and instead it was like when I was leveling my warrior. So I found this guide while looking up info on possible builds. It was just what I needed. I respecced to subtlety and picked up about 10 levels in the last few days. It’s been a blast too. Thanks for your effort – I much appreciate it. Combat may be faster, but not if you’re not playing
Thanks again!