I Are Disappoint

Before I launch into the brief story that this post is about, a little background about my guild is needed.  Officers in my guild gkick people as a joke on occasion, usually with the person immediately being invited back.  I’m fairly certain that many guilds with a good sense of humor do this as well; after all, it’s just a joke.  Most people understand this and have no issue with it.  I say most, as there was a player in the guild who had decided that the process of being removed from the guild, if even for a second, was infuriating.

I don’t know if he reads here, but I’ll risk upsetting him more to fully explain the situation, which includes understanding him.  First off, I’m not entirely certain that he knows he behaves in the way I’m about to describe. Second, I’ve no idea if he does the following things intentionally.  Regardless, it eventually led to the “disappoint” I alluded to in the title.

He is a “button pusher,” that is to say that if he knows how to take a jab at someone he will.  Also, he’s got  bad habit of offering unsolicited advice, and often to the wrong person (read:  they’re whispering me to complain about it).  That all being said, he’s a fantastic and talented player.  He’s got the potential to be a good leader, but could use a little work on being a follower in some situations.  However, with what happened last night, I may never get to find out if he matures into the leader he could be.

This player carries around a train set (makes everyone /train if you didn’t know) and uses it all the time.  He does this, because it annoys the crap out of a good number of the raid when he drops it.  I myself, get a little irritated, but the Mrs. hates it enough to carry around a train wrecker (which destroys the train and stops the problem).  The first time he dropped it last night,  my wife warned everyone that if it were dropped again, she would guild kick the culprit (I think you can see where this is going).

Well, it happened again, and in a “boy who cried wolf” way, it was assumed that he did it.  The Mrs. followed through with her promise and sent the gkick his way. Following that, he immediately left the raid, as he said in vent “You know how much I hate that s#!t”  and logged out out of vent.  Continuing to ragequit, he logged on his other two toons and removed them from the guild himself.  It turns out that he wasn’t the one who dropped the train that time, but that’s really not the point.

I don’t know if he’ll wake up today and consider what he did a mistake, but assuming he doesn’t, was he crazy to leave over something so trivial?  He had progressed with our guild through ICC, and was working on Lich King with us.  We’re not far from killing him either.  Would you have left?  I don’t know that I would, but I do know that I are quite disappoint.

– Sam

29 Responses to I Are Disappoint

  1. pitrelli says:

    Hmm i’m in two minds, having run a guild I never did the whole kick them for a laugh routine I did however have a lowest rank set up called ‘maggot’ (its when I was horde side of the fence) that I would bring out to players who needed to learn some manners/lessons.

    honestly I can see how he was pissed off but if as you say its a regular ‘just for a laugh’ thing then he perhaps over reacted. Perhaps you should incorporate a small rule set for raiding which demands players to concentrate and not muck around *shrug*

    As I said having been a guild leader before I recognise how hard it is to keep the peace and everyone happy. With this in mind I’d both ban the use of ‘vanity pets’/ ‘distraction toys’ in raids and ban the ‘guild kick’ unless it is for good reason. With the guild kick I had a three strikes rule but also had regular ‘council meetings’ to discuss general feelings or problems which may have arisen over a week or so.

    One of the things I’ve found with guild kicking someone so readily is it can split opinion in the guild and create an unwelcome atmosphere often with others considering their place in the guild which alone makes it worth thinking about.

    Anyway trying not to sound preachy or say I know best but I’m trying to understand both sides of the story whilst giving an outsiders opinion looking in 🙂

  2. samueltempus says:

    “ban the ‘guild kick’ unless it is for good reason”

    This would never fly in our guild. Getting kicked as a joke in our guild is a term of endearment. If you’re being kicked as a joke by an officer, it means you’ve made it in with the core players of the guild.

    As for raiding, we try and keep it pretty light hearted, even on Arthas. Had he not rage quit, it wouldn’t have cost us any time, as we were buffing. He would have been instantly invited back, but chose to fume off instead. While we don’t have a set rule in place, the train set is a point of contention and has been repeatedly asked to not be dropped.

    It’s not that I can’t see his point, its more along the lines of if you can dish it out, you should be able to take it. I’m positive that he’s dropped his train in a raid over 30 times and he’s been joking kicked from guild less than 10. As I said, he knows that annoys the crap out of a lot of people and he does it anyway. If he’s willing to annoy people as a joke, he should be able to take a joke too.

    – Sam

  3. Sandrockcstm says:

    Sounds like a maturity issue to me. I personally don’t like “button-pushers.” It’s a clash of personality with me. But if he understood the guild culture (which he should have given how often he partook in your guys’ form of humor) then he should have known better than to nerdrage about it… ESPECIALLY if was annoying the crap out of people intentionally.

    I know these things are difficult to deal with, especially as the raid and guild leader, not to mention the husband of the person who did the gkick, but I wouldn’t let it get to you. Warnings were given, warnings were ignored. Punishments/Pranks were given, perhaps misplaced but not necessarily undeserved, and if this guy can’t see that, then he was a ticking time-bomb in the first place, and would have exploded over some issue eventually.

    In the long run, he’ll either learn to see that and ask to come back or he’ll fume off to some other guild and probably go through a similar lesson again.

  4. elrasguno says:

    I have to say, while I’m not playing actively at the time, when I was raiding a few months back I sure did hate that train. I had a wrecker on all 3 of my raiding toons, AND was extremely adept at firing it off at the first hint of a train being dropped.

    As for the ragequit issues; The game just breeds that kind of attitude, mostly because everyone tends to have this idea that “if I could just play a little bit more” than they’d have their characters where they wanted it to be.

  5. Revix says:

    before i read the post i want to correct your title. the phrase is “i am disappoint”

  6. Paul says:

    Download toolbuster, it announces to the raid exactly which moron decided to drop the train (amongst other things).

  7. Vonvonn says:

    Lil XT breaks trains. Best $10 you can spend…
    🙂

  8. Jacob says:

    I am not your player, but:
    I hate “joke” guild-kicks. And I think they are unwise.

    If you’re in a guild where you have a solid friendly relationship with the guild officers, you may be confident that you are wanted (or even needed), and may view a joke guild-kick as friendly ribbing.

    If you’re not quite so solid in the guild and feel unsure about whether you really belong, unsure how the other people really feel about you – a joke guild-kick can be devastating. It’s like a power-trip of the guild officers – a demonstration of their absolute power over you. “This is what happens if you fail to appease my whims!”

    In your situation, it sounds like two or three small wrongs combined to make a bigger wrong:
    – the kicked player is a lout, for viewing trains as an “acceptable nuisance”.
    – the person who dropped the second train is a lout, for trying to get the first person into trouble.
    – the officer who issued the threat and did the kick was careless in not checking to see WHOSE train it was. If you’re going to punish, be damn sure you punish the right person.

    Any of these things would have been a small issue if alone, but you had the misfortune to combine all of them at once.

  9. samueltempus says:

    Jacob,

    A few points of clarification.

    1.) After talking with some of the other officers, and checking logs, we’re fairly certain it really was him dropping the train.

    2.) You have to be a well accepted member of the guild to get a joke kick anyway. As I said in the comments earlier, it’s a term of endearment to be momentarily displaced in our guild. We only joke kick people in high standing. This was a person with a solid raid spot in a group that he had been running with for months working on the Lich King, not a person unfamiliar with the group. He’d laugh and support when other people would get joke booted, and knew what it really meant.

    3) We don’t constantly boot people as a joke. It does happen as often as a few times a week, but its certainly not like we’re kicking people every 5 minutes. The members of the guild have an understanding of what is going on, and up until this instance, in 3.5 years it’s never been an issue.

    – Sam

  10. Lyndiana says:

    As an officer in the guild and a member of several years, I’ll add my clarification on the gkick thing. It’s been happening since BC, and I’m pretty sure since before Sam was GM. It is usually his brother (also an officer, and the original GM) who does the booting, or “that Revix guy” whom you may see around occasionally. I don’t know of any instances where someone who is a new member has been joke-kicked, it’s usually officer alts, veterans, or very involved members who are party to them. And when someone is kicked, they are brought right back in and put right back at their rank, so their “position in the guild” is not something in question here. When real g-kicks happen, it is usually me who handles them, and I usually tell the guild what’s up when I do so.

    As the recruiting officer whom new people usually contact first, and the one who is usually in charge of assimilating then to our guild’s social structure and other members, the first time new people see this happen I usually get a whisper to the tune of “Oh my goodness why did they get kicked???” I then explain who the people are that are involved, and that it’s in jest. To quote one of our other guildies “You’re not really a Buckler until you’ve been kicked by [Sam’s brother].” As Sam stated, it’s understood *in our guild setting* that this is a term of endearment. I wouldn’t say it’s common or a good idea in any guild that’s less social (the people involved are usually all in vent laughing at each other), but it is this way in our guild, and can guarantee you that anyone involved knows what it’s about.

    In this case, I didn’t see it happen, but I agree with Sam’s observations 100%. Anyone who would leave a dedicated raid spot in a good guild over something they know to not be something serious probably had other reasons for wanting to leave and just took this out.

  11. Groendell says:

    I am for the joking Gkick (and am guilty of being both kicked and gkicking- hell I have mock left the guild-damn guild members singing the McDonalds Filet o Fish song in vent [convulses in pain at the thought of it]). Of course it needs to be used in the correct context (wouldn’t want to use it on a new member that doesn’t know your guilds culture yet). Down ranking an “offending” member can be funny too. Either of these keep the guild lighter and less serious. I can see train dropping as a kickable offense ; )

  12. Asa says:

    Either dropping the train is acceptable or it isn’t. You

  13. Sinanjuu says:

    The friendly /gkick is a tradition in our guild as well. We are the top raid guild on our server and we will from time to time invite the random noob that asks if they can join up and subject them to “guild trivia” where the officers will ask absurd trivia questions. If the “applicant” gets it right they get a promotion in the guild rank and if they get it wrong they get a demotion at the last guild rank they get a /gkick. Once a guy was getting the correct answers from someone (whistle….) and got so many right that he made it all the way to officer and started /gkicking US! Too funny. your guys sounds like a typical Ragenerd McJerkface and your better off without someone that cant get with the program or the guild culture. Dont loose sleep over it man.

  14. Asa says:

    … sorry, got cut off there.

    Your guild has accepted that if a train set gets dropped, it gets broken. The message this sends is that dropping a train is OK. If you really wanted to stop trains from being dropped, you could outlaw it and kick offenders from the raid. It sounds like your wife wanted to communicate something serious but by threatening a guild kick instead of a raid kick, she sent a mixed message about how serious she was about what she wanted, what a gkick means and how the guild views trains. There was clearly more to the interaction here than a playful dare. It sounds to me like he was frustrated by unclear expectations. Whether he dropped the second train is almost immaterial.

  15. Lyndiana says:

    @ Asa:

    I seriously doubt this person got any mixed messages. He understood the “guild culture” and the officer who gkicked him. He knew it bothered people, and Sam’s observation that the offender is a “button pusher” would be fully agreed upon if you asked any of his guildies. And for your assertion that “it’s ok or it isn’t”, well, that’s just not true around Bucklers. Catch us on a good day, when we’re not in an intense raid, and we’ll probably laugh while we watch the train be destroyed. But at a time like that, we are (mostly) mature enough to know better and expect the same respect from others.

    Also, I wasn’t there, but I know all these people well, and I assure you there was no “playful dare” involved. I still strongly believe that an immature player chose a convenient out from a situation other than the one at hand. It’s just easier for someone who’s self-righteous and self-centered to make it look like someone else’s fault when they can’t man-up to a situation than to face it maturely and, in this case, stop or behave.

    BTW, no one has even answered Sam’s final questions! Sam, I wouldn’t have left the guild. The raid, maybe. And yes, I think it’s crazy, but I think there were other motives afoot too.

  16. Ben Dover says:

    TBH, I don’t think it’s a good idea to /gkick anyone just for laughs. Even though you’ll re-invite them back after it, to me there’s a few things that make this a bad practice.

    1. It makes disciplinary action harder.
    If /gkicking is thought of as a joke, then it loses it meaning as a way to get out of a bad situation. It also undermines all the other tools officers and guild leaders have at their disposal.

    2. It sets a bad example.
    Abuse of power, even in a fantasy game setting, where everything is made up and the points don’t matter, gives the message of “we are superior” in a code. Even when people laugh they might feel, that their progression is in the hands of some other persons whims.

    3. It’s not funny.
    Getting kicked out of a group is mostly funny only to the other people, and not at all to the one it’s done too. Even if they laugh it off don’t fool yourself in thinking that there weren’t some hurt feelings.
    In most cases, even if we play every day with someone, we don’t really know these guildies. We are showing a very limited part of ourselves to the other members. We simply don’t have a clue of what might be going on in real life.

    I think this dude there might have overreacted, but the thing is, no one knows why. I don’t think a few cheep laughs justify using /gkick for anything else, then getting rid of unwanted characters. It’s just not worth the risk.

  17. Ben Dover says:

    From what has been said in the original post and comments, I’d say that if the guy was in the “in-gang” and knew how the thing works, he did overreact somewhat. I still think it’s a bad idea to /gkick as a joke, for reasons I stated before. Even if it’s used as friendly banter, it opens a world of potential problems.

    As for someone being a “button pusher”, that’s something that the Officers and Guild Leaders should handle before raids. Most drama can be avoided by showing consistency in leadership and leading by example.

    To me it just seems like a bad inside joke just finally caught up and the guild might have lost a valuable player for it. He should have known better, but so should the officers.

  18. notanothernick says:

    Sounds to me like a immanent risk of fun kicking got real. In most cases you have good chances that people take it as what it is. But don’t count too much on it 🙂

    I doubt that this kind of “joke” is really necessary. So a simple solution to avoid these situations is: let it be. It’s just a bad deal to loose a good player for a cheap laugh ….

  19. JC says:

    You said yourself that he hated the “funny” /gkicks. If that’s the case don’t do it unless you mean it. Then someone else obviously set him up for another one. I know it’s just fun, bit it’s only fun if everyone involved agrees it is fun. If you know he didn’t like it then why do it?

    If I was him I’d do the same thing. Even killing the LK would feel a bit hollow if I was doing it with a bunch of people that always tried to piss me off.

  20. castoreq says:

    Hi, i just wanted to share my story – it’s quite similar to this one showed here, thus i im the one who /gquit …

    i played arena and communicated with my partner @ chat … then someone from my guid started to spam recount dps stats @ guild channel … once, twice i asked if he could not do that, cuz i really need to actually SEE what my arena partner writes to me …

    But then somone else from my guild spammed overall damage from some boss they recently killed – i got so pissed off and did /gquit – it wasn’t just that case which pushed me to quit, but it was a cheery on pie. i had a bad day, bad mood, and of course someone HAD to make it go worse – i really felt a relief after that quit, and i don’t regret it to this day.

    So …

    what i’m trying to say is, u guys need to realize that not everybody, every day has a mood (or tries to make something serious, like arena – or both) to make jokes, and be a target of ones.

  21. bigbadbeasty says:

    I have been a long time reader of this blog. It is very enjoyable, and Sam you seem like a generally nice chap.

    The whole thing is somewhat tit-for-tat, but the /gkick thing is a little silly, and is kind of asking for trouble.

    In our guild we have been known for doing fake /gkick, as in we type it in with a space before hand. Same gag, but no one gets kicked.

    Did he overreact? Sure. But eventually such a reaction was always going to happen. I don’t like it when people can give but not take. However those in charge of the guild have (imo) the duty to rise above it and not resort to such acts.

    It does seem a bit daft losing a good guildy over something so trivial.

  22. Anslym says:

    Let me tell you my point of the story, I am not an officer or a leader so I don’t have to upkeep any image. I didnt know anyone else felt the same way I did about him. It got to the point where I would avoid him, when it came to the 3 hours of raiding with him for 3-4 nights a week I would grin and bear it.

  23. Anslym says:

    Sorry got cut off.

    About the train set. The person who had the wrecker would log on an alt for the first few boss which meant we didnt have one. So I quickly bought one just so I could take care of the problem. The train would be cast around the fish feast so it could get as many people as possible. Then he began to cast it under the bosses feet (me being a ranged dps and the other person being a healer) we couldnt get at the train to destory it.

    The night it question she made it VERY clear. Did I know that someone was going to cast it? No. Did I think that people had enough common sense to not cast it again? Appearently not.

    About Gkicking / Lyndi: You truly arent part of the core till you are guild kicked, bonus points for vent kick (Althought vent kicking may because I was flaunting my free healthcare). The way the guild relationship is set up is to the point where I know when to gquit myself to get the satisfaction of them not being able to kick me.

    Overall: Did he deserve the gkick? . . . . .

  24. Jason says:

    Wow Sam. I must admit I side with your guild member.

    I’m sure it was not the gkick that ticked him off. I would be pretty ticked off as well if it was not me that dropped the train set the second time. I would not have liked it if my guild immediately accused me of something I did not do. Do not jump to conclusions if you want to be a good guild leader. Occam’s Razor is not true for every occasion.

  25. Lilliah says:

    @ Asa. I think what you said has the most truth. It cuts through the mud. Thanks. 🙂 from Lilliah of Cairne

  26. The Mrs says:

    I apologize for the length, however, since there has been so much interest in this post I felt I should do some clarification myself. First off, I am not one for the joke gkick. I know that it is meant as a term of endearment in our guild, but I prefer sending people <3's and presents (both in game and in real life) to show them how much I care. Second, I dont know that I would use the term "good player" when referring to this guy as I feel the term implies more than being really good at tanking. Also, unlike my husband, I was quite aware of how bothered by this player many of the members of our guild were and had spoken to the ex-guldie on several occasions about how abrasive his attitude and behaviors were to several other members. I told him I was quite aware that he meant most of what he said in fun, but often times people took him quite seriously. Honestly, most of the time he did not bother me because I knew he was just naturally and abrasive person who loved picking at people and meant nothing personally.
    The train I generally only find mildly annoying. However, this was not a usual week, and the train was not the only thing that was occurring. Admits being picked on many different times I had requested to please be left alone as a lot of real life things were going very badly for me that week. Unfortunately, the request was ignored, a train was put down, and the statement "I will gkick you if you drop another one" was made. Now, being that I have spoken to this ex-guildie many, many times in a one on one capacity I was well aware that being gkicked truly pisses him off. I also know that when he gets pissed he silently follows directions until raid is over, logging immediately after. Since my multiple requests to be left alone had not worked, I was hoping that if I was able to piss him off enough he would back off for the evening. Apparently it worked slightly different than I thought it would.
    Several seemed concerned that he was just instantly gkicked for a behavior that was not his. However, I asked in raid chat who dropped the train and while I was told by several of the raiders that it was him, the only response I got from him was incessant laughter over vent. For this reason it was assumed (from what I understand from another raiders log quite accurately) that he had in fact dropped the train.
    I had no intention of gkicking him permanently. He is a very good tank. I was trying to get a point across that he was not seeming to get in the multiple conversations we had over the past couple weeks.
    I do feel bad that I upset someone so greatly that they felt the need to rage quit on all their toons that night, however I feel that reducing someone to the point of tears gives them the right to defend themselves in any way possible.

  27. arleff says:

    Meh – storm in a teacup!
    My Gordian Knot philosophy is fairly simple. He was warned what would happen, he went ahead and did it and got the promised /gkick for doing so.
    Then complains about it??? Seriously, is our ‘special snowflake’ a little hard of thinking?

    Judging by his attitude, I’m surprised he lasted this long. Rather than wonder whether you should have done this or not, perhaps the question is why did it take so long? Ok, so you lost a a good tank, but got shot of an idiot in the process.

    More power to you!

  28. Ger says:

    He was abrasive and liked to push people’s buttons.
    He had no sense of humor if someone pushed his buttons.
    Nerdrage quit is a blessing. Having people like that around is detrimental to others.

    I’ve been Gkicked more than any other members in my guild. I think it is hysterical. I’ve also feigned being insulted and gquit a few times. The responses in guild chat are fun to hear about. I’m very shocked about all the people responding how bad it is to /gkick in fun. It’s not an abuse of power, its a show of affection. If someone cannot grasp that fun-loving aspect then perhaps they are in the wrong guild.

    By the by, I’m also endlessly annoyed by the train, I’m glad none of my guild have thought to use that.

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